Living Life As A Thank You
Larry O’Keefe in Middlebury, Vermont September 29, 2023
I was incredibly fortunate to have had Larry O’Keefe as a mentor and a friend when I was a new teacher at Vista de Las Cruces School in Gaviota, California. It was the 1990s, and Larry was a visiting teacher from Vermont who was hired along with his colleague Eric Mortensen to help launch an innovative educational program called Paradise Project. The program was successful at their home school in Burlington, but transposing it to our little rural community was a brave experiment. It didn’t fit in smoothly or immediately, but its core components ultimately proved refreshing and enduring, and for some students, even life-changing. These elements included experiential learning, student responsibility, and traveling to various destinations where a network of trusted host families had been established. In the meantime, through his actions and wise counsel, Larry taught me to be the best teacher—and person—I could be. He is one of the kindest people I’ve ever known, and a gifted storyteller. We had to do this interview in writing, but I am hoping to add in a sound-clip at some point so you can hear his voice…it’s the voice of a radio star, a voice for campfire stories or a cross-country drive.
We always start with the subject's name, date, and place of birth, and the date and location of the interview.
I’m Lawrence "Larry" O'Keefe, born October 30, 1941 in Westerly, Rhode Island, answering these questions in writing at my home in Pawcatuck, Connecticut, beginning in November, 2023.
Where are you from, and how did you come to find the place where you make your home?
I was born and grew up here in the same town where I now live, Pawcatuck, CT. It's a small, quiet coastal village on the Rhode Island border which swells to more than double its size in the summer tourist season. This is the area where nearly all of my family have lived for generations. My father's family were Irish Famine immigrants in 1850 and my mother herself was an immigrant in the 1920s. She was born in Glasgow, Scotland to Irish parents. My father's mother gave birth to 17 children; my mother's mother gave birth to 11, so I come from a very large Irish-Catholic family. In fact, I have 60 first cousins! This was an ideal place to live and to grow up. Kind of like Norman Rockwell America! My buddies and I hung out in the neighborhood each night, rode our bikes far and wide, hitchhiked to the beach in the summer -- all without a moment of fear or concern for our safety. Everyone knew everyone in the village. We could, and would, drop into almost any house on the street if we were ever in need.
I remained here in Pawcatuck until a few years after high school. When I graduated high school (Stonington High School) I went to the University of Rhode Island to study engineering. What a mistake that was! Engineering and I were most definitely not a good match, and after two years, I flunked out of engineering school. I then went to St. Michael College in Winooski, Vermont to study to be a teacher. Through scouting, I became very involved in the local community (Burlington) and ultimately, after graduation, I was offered a teaching job in a Burlington Junior High School. That's how I ended up living for forty years in Burlington. I taught my entire career in the same school -- almost 35 years.
Although it was the largest city in Vermont, Burlington had that same "small town" atmosphere that I loved. It was safe, quiet, friendly, and when you walked through the downtown area you always ran into a half dozen or so folks you knew well enough to stop and chat with. Sadly, today Burlington is far more urban, with all the ills that come with being urban. In fact, it's been on the national news for days now because of a gun attack by a local man on three Palestinian college students, one of whose maternal family are Burlington natives and current residents.
I think it would be interesting to recap how you came to be teaching in, of all places, Gaviota!
My two-year sojourn in Gaviota, California came about in a strange way. Eric and I had been directors of The Paradise Project at Edmunds Middle School for nearly twenty years when the school district was planning to end our program. Ironically, a chance meeting on one of our Paradise road trips with an NBC producer threw a real monkey wrench into the district's plan. Cara DeVito, the producer, had heard about our program through a relative and, to keep a long story short, ultimately ended up producing a 4-minute news segment on Brian Williams’ Saturday Night News. At the very moment that the Burlington District was trying to close down the Paradise Project, it was suddenly broadcast on a nationwide NBC news program as an outstanding and unique educational program. Our community was thrilled and honored with the sudden notoriety. The drive to shut us down was suddenly an embarrassment to the school leadership.
That national news story caught the eye and ear of Marina Margetts, Principal of Vista de las Cruces school in Gaviota. After a very dogged and arduous and unrelenting quest to bring Paradise Project to Gaviota, Marina finally prevailed. Eric and I agreed to go clear across the country, for a half year each, and try to bring the concept of the Project to Vista. Our school district agreed to "loan" us for the year. It was a way for them to crawl out from under their embarrassment.
Unbeknownst to Marina and the Vista family, this loan to Vista was to become a life saver for me. After a year of verbal abuse, accusations of being burned out and a bad influence on kids, and being hit with a steady onslaught of character assassinations, Eric and I had both begun to wear down and to lose faith in ourselves. Although I was absolutely terrified to be heading clear across the country to sort of "start all over again" in my mid-50s, the experience actually restored my faith and belief in myself and my ability to interact positively with kids. A handful of staff, (including Marina, Ted Martinez, and you, Cynthia), several parents, and a lot of kids helped me to survive the challenges I faced at Vista and to regain the joy of working with kids! The one-year loan expanded to a two-year loan, and you and I became "partners in crime" in trying to bring our style of education to a rather laid-back school.
What is your source of strength? How have you gotten through the hard stuff?
It's been fortunate for me that throughout most of my adult life I've been surrounded by kids, mainly adolescent kids. I've been involved as a scout leader almost all my life and I was a middle school teacher for 35 years. I've always told those kids that I can freely provide a great deal of support, a great deal of energy for them. But my energy is finite and it needs to be replenished by energy from others. To their credit, those adolescent kids grasped that concept and learned to sense when my energy level was at a low point. That was when they always would leap into action.
Although there have been a multitude of adults who've helped me through the hard stuff, my greatest source of strength has come from the energy of hundreds of kids. And I've never been more conscious of that than I am now. Now, at 82 years of age, I find myself, for the first time in more that 60 years, without that group of kids surrounding me. I truly miss their energy, their caring, their love. And I miss being able to provide the same for them. Since I have no children or grandchildren, I no longer have contact with kids. It's a very different world to have that source of energy gone.
Larry with his dear friend and teaching partner, Eric (Mort) Mortensen, enjoying morning coffee in a Middlebury diner. As Mort says, “I’ll sell you swampland in Florida, and Larry will make you glad you got it.”
What fundamental experience(s) have shaped your worldview?
My worldview is probably the controversial position that "I am my brother's keeper." I believe that throughout the world, we are all our brother's keeper. Of course, there are many who call me an idealistic fool for believing that. But it's so deeply imbedded in me, it's so much a part of who I am, that fool or not, it is my worldview. And how did I come be this kind of idealistic fool? I grew up in a family and community where we all watched out for and cared for each other. I grew up believing that whatever kindness or care I could provide for "my neighbor," it was my obligation to act on it. And as the years have gone on, I have practiced that always. I cannot stand by and watch unkindness, anywhere in the world, without feeling a sense of pain. It causes me a very deep pain to see people suffering and feeling profound loss. I know my "Pollyanna outlook" on the world will never prevail but, in the meantime, I will still "do my part" by continuing to be my brother's keeper, wherever I may be.
Tell us about a turning point in your life, or a big decision. How did you navigate?
There are a couple of big decisions that became turning points in my life. The first was when I flunked out of college. My parents had skimped and saved to send me to college. As a working-class family, their resources were very limited, and their sacrifice was great. I graduated near the top of my high school class. I was going to be one of the first on either side of my immigrant family to attend college. To put it mildly, there were an awful lot of eggs in my basket. When I flunked out, I felt as though I had wasted my parents' resources and let down a vast multitude of people. I was at the first of many major low points in my life, with no experience in how to handle it. I just wanted to end it all right then and there. Fortunately, although they were deeply hurt and humiliated, both of my parents were "get back on the horse" types. They put "the horse" out there in front of me and waited. I made the right decision and got back on that horse. That led to a wonderful lifetime career in teaching and living in Burlington, Vermont
The second turning point decision came, once again, when I was at a very low point in my life. I was beaten and devastated from almost a year of character assassination by our school leadership in order to weaken my influence in the school system. That was when the calls from Marina began about going out to California. I was so demoralized that l clearly wasn't open to anything as risky as that. I repeatedly said no to Marina. She was persistent. My choice: stay home and wallow in my deteriorating career which, oddly, was the more appealing, or start from scratch in California. Again, I ultimately made the right choice and it became a life-changing turning point.
Do you ever think about roads not taken and things you wish you’d done differently?
Fairly early in my teaching in career in Burlington I had already become very involved in providing outside activities and road trips for our 7th grade students. One day I got a phone call from a principal of a school in Southwest Harbor, Maine, one of my absolutely favorite places in the world. He wanted me to come for an interview for a job. I was very excited at the prospect of working and living in Southwest Harbor. In an attempt to make the trip to Maine do "double duty," I took a vanload of kids with me to camp in Acadia National Park after my interview. I was offered the job. By the time the weekend was over, the kids had talked me out of accepting it. I have many a time thought about what my life would have been like had I spent it in a tiny Maine coastal village instead of Burlington, Vermont.
What was your childhood spiritual or religious background?
I was born into a devout Roman Catholic family and grew up in a nearly solid Catholic environment. I lived in the Irish-Italian neighborhood of town, surrounded by Catholic families. As a child, that religious element was a major part of my life. I attended Catholic school, I was an altar boy, I joined the Boy Scout troop that met at our Catholic church. I was in public high school before I began to meet any number of guys who were not Catholic, and even then they were not in great number. The entire town was heavily Catholic. I then went on to attend a Catholic college in Vermont. I was hopelessly immersed in one religious background.
But when I was in college, as I became more educated and analytical and challenging in my thinking, I first began to question much of what I had believed and had accepted without question for most of my life. Although I've continued to marginally participate in the Catholic tradition, mostly because it's been important to my parents and family. Today I no longer accept most of the Catholic faith. When I'm asked about my religion I say, "I'm a Catholic through an accident of birth." And now I think of myself of as a cultural Catholic, not a religious Catholic. The tenets of that faith are so deeply a part of my background and culture that I will never be able to completely shake them.
As I've explored and studied a multitude of other religions over the years, the one that I find most compatible with my spiritual journey might be the Quakers. It's simplistic, not drowning in doctrine and ritual, mostly teaching a very personal connection with God. My spiritual faith is a belief in God and his creation, and a moral path that is simplistic and forgiving. I feel closest to God when I'm outdoors in the world he created as opposed to the world that man has created.
What is your earliest (or an early) memory?
My earliest memory is of sitting in a rolling baby table in the kitchen of our first home on Garden Street in Pawcatuck. The table was a big square, on wheels, with a cut-out in the middle for a canvas seat for a baby. What I remember is that I thought I had two mothers at the time. My Aunt Connie had come to live with us after I was born and she and my mother seemed to both take care of me in that baby table in the kitchen. I really thought they were both my mother. It took me a few years before I realized that Connie was my aunt, not one of my mothers. And to this day I still remember that old rolling baby table that I "occupied" in my early childhood.
Can you tell us about someone who was a big influence on your life?
Outside of my family, there is one man who stands incredibly tale in being the absolutely most positive and profound influence in my life. That man was Charles D. "Charlie" Keegan, my scoutmaster. Like a multitude of us who were his scouts, I credit Charlie with making me the man that I have been and still am today. Whenever I run into one of the guys who were from the "Charlie Keegan era" in Troop 9, we all end up saying the same thing. That man changed my life.
Charlie was a simple man. He was a Lifesaver in the early Coast Guard, being transferred from station to station along the New England coast. When his wife was pregnant with their 5th child, Charlie was stationed far away on Cape Cod. When his wife died after childbirth, he was left a widow with five young children. He had to resign the Coast Guard and come home to raise his family alone. He went to work in the mill, like so many guys in town. And he became involved in the Boy Scout program. By 1950, he was scoutmaster of the local troop. He continued in that leadership for more than 35 years. To those of us who were blessed to be his scouts, this plain, ordinary man was a truly extraordinary man! In fact, at one point a group of us guys wanted to write to Readers Digest to have him included in their "A Most Unforgettable Person" column.
The training, the wisdom, the knowledge, the courage, the strength that Charlie Keegan imparted to us every day kept us going. It was from him that I first learned to have such a strong faith in others, and I followed his position for all my years. When we didn't have faith in ourselves, he would say, "I know you don't believe in yourself right now so, for the time being, I have enough belief in you for both of us." It was amazing how much his belief in us would give us the strength to tackle some daunting task -- and succeed. And I used that message with my own scouts and students for 40 years.
A favorite story of my own scouts and the Paradise students that I was often requested to share was about the time Charlie wouldn't let us thank him. He had taken us on a trip to southern Vermont, a place none of us had ever been. As we were standing on a mountain looking at the view, it occurred to us that we really needed to thank Charlie for this incredible experience. So, we walked over to him and did just that. He looked at us and said, "Sorry, but I can't accept that." Dumbfounded and confused by his response, we repeated our thanks. Charlie repeated his response. Seeing our dismay, and a bit of hurt, he smiled and simply said, "You can't say a Thank You. You have to do a Thank You. When you've done the same for someone else, that's when you'll have done your Thank You for me." Many years after receiving that gem of wisdom, I took my own scout troop from Vermont to Washington, DC on a trip. I wrote Charlie a postcard that said, "In Washington, DC with my scout troop, Charlie. Thank You." Not long after I returned home, I received a postcard from Charlie. It said, quite simply, "Larry, you're welcome." That concept of "Do a Thank You" has carried on through scouts and Paradise kids for years. I still receive messages from grown-up kids who write to say they're "Doing their Thank You."
One last point here. When I realized how much of an impact Charlie Keegan had on my life, and the lives of hundreds of others, I made a silent promise to Charlie and myself that I would spend the rest of my life trying to do the same, trying to be the "Charlie Keegan" for other kids. And I have, in fact, spent my life trying to fulfill that promise.
You are so inspiring, Larry. But back to our questions: When have you felt most alone? Who has been the kindest to you in your life?
I'm not sure that I've ever felt truly alone at any point in my life. And if I think of the kindest people in my life, my teaching partner Eric Mortensen and my longtime friend Faye Lawes come to mind immediately. They've both hung with me, regardless of the pain and agony I may have caused them, and continued to provide me with kindness, support, guidance and direction. But over the whole course of my lifetime, the great kindness has always been my mother. No matter where I was in life and how much grief I was causing her, she would always be there with kindness and comfort and support. This continued until she died at the age of 93. And I believe she learned that kindness from her own mother, my grandmother, who could always pull me back from the brink of despair with her gentle smile, warm and tender touch, and reassurance that I will be alright.
What are the most important lessons you’ve learned in life?
One of the most important lessons I've learned came directly from my mother and her family. She taught me, and modeled for me, that it's always important to not take myself too seriously, and to be quick to laugh at myself. In fact, she taught me that laughter was one of the greatest gifts God gave us. I've carried that with me throughout my days.
Another lesson was that no matter what others around me want me to do, I must ultimately stand on my own conscience. I surely have not done the right thing in all situations, but I am well aware of the consequences of not doing the right thing -- and whether or not I wish to admit it, in any given situation I actually DO know the difference between right and wrong. I have the choice to do right or do wrong, even if I find myself standing alone.
From my father I learned that a job worth doing is a job worth doing well. He was a true perfectionist. He never, never did a slipshod job on anything. He paid great attention to detail and worked and reworked a task until he was satisfied, and he was most definitely the most stern of taskmasters. I remember as a kid, whenever I was doing the yardwork for him, he would inspect it and always find something lacking. My happiest day was the day he followed me all over the yard, examining every spot, and then just went silently into the house. His greatest compliment was that he couldn't find anything wrong. I have tried, maybe with a little less fervor, to do the same in my own work.
Another lesson I've learned is one that I think I taught myself. I've had to spend my life "chewing people out," as kids used to tell me. But I learned that I could hit a kid with almost anything that was difficult for them to hear as long as we finished the conversation with a positive and uplifting comment about the kid. The way they used to put was, "Mr. O, you can chew us out as bad as we need, but when you finish you always leave us with our dignity intact." I'm pretty proud that I've mastered that.
What surprises you?
Sadly, what surprises me today is the prevalence of bigotry, intolerance, divisiveness, violence, and unkindness that has permeated the citizens of our nation. In my 82 years, even during the Vietnam era, I have not seen such a growing and festering plague on our politics and our government. It truly surprises me, because I never expected it. There has always been that element in our country, but it's been minimized and kept in check by the strength of our constitution and our voters and our politicians' adherence to our standards. It has now been unleashed and, unfortunately, I fear there are more surprises awaiting me in the future.
On a more positive note, what also surprises me is that in the midst of the above, there continues to be kindness, empathy, caring, honesty, and unity. These things still surround us and remind us of who we really are. I hope we never lose that to the forces of evil.
What inspires your creativity, and how do you express it?
I'm not sure how to answer this question. I don't really know what inspires my creativity, probably because I don't view myself as being a particularly creative person. I am not artistic or musical or dramatic or athletic. I'm not one to take creative approaches to problem solving, at least I don't think so. I guess I've always viewed myself as being a fairly simple, ordinary, not particularly creative sort of guy.
Larry, I think you are an example of someone whose life is your art. But okay, again, back to the questions: Who inspires you? Do you have a hero in real life, or maybe a hero in fiction?
My real life hero, as you can probably already guess, is Charlie Keegan, for all the reasons given in a question above. But another real life hero who has always inspired me is Susan Craighead. When I met Susan, as a 12-year-old Paradise student, she was suffering from a rare debilitating disease that caused tissues to peel from her body, internally and externally, in painful, ugly boils. She has lived with that disease all her life, suffering increasing trauma and pain over the years. Yet she has gone on to college, become a Rhodes Scholar, a lawyer who served the most downtrodden in our world, was appointed a Justice in the Superior Court in Washington state, adopted a disabled child who she has cared for over the years, and has done all of this with a perpetually positive and upbeat attitude. She has been and still is a true inspiration to me. I can't recall ever having any fictional hero, except maybe when I was about 10 years old and Hopalong Cassidy was a hero of mine.
What are you most proud of?
As I mentioned in another question, when I was a teen-ager I made a promise to myself and Charlie Keegan that I would dedicate myself to doing for others what Charlie had done for me. He had been there for me, and for hundreds of other boys, to guide us, support us, encourage us and stand by us in good times and bad. He had touched my life and changed it forever. I am most proud that I have done my best to honor that promise all my life. I have tried to touch the lives of others, particularly adolescents, in much the same way that he touched my life. Charlie impacted hundreds of lives in his years as our scoutmaster. I have tried to do the same in my years as a scoutmaster and a middle school teacher. I am proud to say that I have done my best to honor my promise to Charlie Keegan and, thereby, to have touched a few lives along the way.
What are some changes you have seen?
As children, my sisters and I would gather in the evening on the floor in front of the big Victrola radio-record player that sat in a prominent spot in our living room. We listened with rapt attention to our favorite radio programs -- Inner Sanctum, Lone Ranger, Arthur Godfrey. We would often wonder what it would be like to be able to actually see the Lone Ranger or Arthur Godfrey. Little did we know that something called television would one day make that possible. And my buddies and I used to wear those Dick Tracy watches and pretend we could actually talk to someone through the watch. Genuine science fiction for those days. And we'd lie on the ground at night looking up at the "man in the moon," wondering if we'd ever know what it was really like up there. As I look back to those childhood days, most all of my science fiction and mystery wonderings have long since become reality. When I talked with my students about the "old days" they would find it hard to believe that I never even knew television existed until I was about 9 years old. And they always laughed when I'd tell them that now when I lie on the ground looking up at the "man on the moon" there might actually be someone up there looking back!
How has your life been different than what you’d imagined?
I guess if I go back to what I expected of my life when I was graduating high school, it's been very different from what I expected at the time. First of all, I was a shy, quiet kid, awkward and uncomfortable speaking before a group. The last thing I saw in my future was school teacher! Thanks to Charlie Keegan pushing me to serve as the Senior Patrol Leader (key boy leader in a scout troop). I was the leader of a 100 scout troop for two years. I learned to hold my own in charge of 100 kids. I also expected to spend the rest of my life living and working in my hometown. I never dreamed of spending 40 years in northern Vermont. If I look back to my high school years, almost nothing in my life turned out the way I was expecting, excluding my lifelong commitment to scouting. That turned out just as I had always expected. Probably the greatest shock to me was becoming a teacher and scoutmaster. I could not imagine in a hundred years ever being able to manage and guide and influence a scout troop or a classroom full of kids. I was absolutely sure that if I ever tackled such a ridiculous goal I would be a miserable failure. Fortunately there were others who saw in me something I couldn't see in myself and I went on to be a moderate success as teacher and a leader.
What is your current state of mind?
My current state of mind is probably the same as it's been most of my life. I have always been an incurable optimist, so no matter how bad and hopeless things can get I'm usually rather annoyingly positive in my outlook. I will admit that the current state of affairs in our country has given my optimism a bit of a challenge. But, nevertheless, I still have faith and hope in the American people and believe that somehow our constitution will hold and the positive-thinking citizens will ultimately prevail. Other than the national dismay, I still tend to be that annoyingly optimistic guy. I'll go back to one of those 3 adages the kids used to tell me I used all the time -- "This too shall pass." And, of course, to that wonderful gift of laughter that I inherited from my mother's family.
How would you like to be remembered?
I would like to be remembered as a man who was given a gift from God of being able to somehow reach out to others, particularly kids, and to touch their lives. And I would like to be remembered as one who was able to be touched by those same lives and to grow through the influence, guidance, caring and support of kids. I believe that when all is said and done, I have been successful in following the path of my mentor, Charlie Keegan, and have been able to touch a few lives along the way. That is probably my legacy.
I would also like to be forgiven for my many failures of kindness. I would like to have been remembered as a kind person, a sensitive and thoughtful person. Unfortunately, I believe I've fallen far short of that goal. I hope that I will be forgiven by all of you for whom my many acts of unkindness and insensitivity have caused such agony and pain. I wish I had been a kinder person.
What defines "success" in life?
A group of students once gave me a coffee cup with a message on it that was a paraphrase of a Robert Stevenson definition of a successful man. The cup said, That man is a success who has gained the respect of others and the love of children. When I opened the present and read the message, they all beamed and said I should read it aloud. I did. They then said, "Mr. O, we bought that for you because it says who you are. We all respect you, and we love you." At that moment it pretty much said it all. For most of my life the wisdom imparted to me came often and regularly from adolescents, from students or Boy Scouts. The day that I received that message on the cup not only came as a gift of wisdom, but it also came with the respect and love of children, children who were an important part of my life. So, I guess as I look back over the years, I pretty much agree with Stevenson and that little group of kids -- and I've spent the rest of my life trying to maintain the respect of others and the love of children. If I've succeeded then I can view myself as a success in life. I guess only time will tell.
Is there any message, wisdom, philosophy or advice you want to share?
Over the years the scouts and students have been quick to point out that among the many adages that I tossed out at them there are three that appear to be regulars. 1) This too shall pass. 2) We'll cross that bridge if we come to it. 3) We will survive. I used them so often that the kids picked them up and used them too. What was important is that the kids didn't just parrot them regularly but they actually internalized the message behind them. They came to believe that no matter how difficult a situation was, it too would pass. They came to realize that we cause ourselves untold agonies by trying to cross bridges we may never actually face. And, our great rallying cry when all hope seemed to be gone - We will survive! I guess if there was some message or advice I'd like to pass on, those 3 messages that worked so well for me and hundreds of kids over the years are probably as good as anything else I might have to share.
What gives you hope?
What always has and always will give me hope is the innate goodness in the youth of our world. For every negative thing we hear about our youth there's a multitude of stories to counter that. And I'm not talking from just listening to the news or reading a positive newspaper article, I'm talking from real life. I have spent my entire life believing that kids are far more capable, far more sensitive, far more caring and loving, than society ever seems to believe. In my 40 some odd years of working with scouts and students, I have seen kids produce an infinitely greater degree of responsibility, reliability, and caring than almost anyone around would have believed could happen. As long as there are kids, there will always be hope.
